347-560-5022

347-560-5022
BROOKLYN, NY
ADVANTAGE PAY DAY LOANS

The same thing happened to me today. I got a call and he told me that I had to pay with a creidt card or debit card today 502 for a online payday loan or else he will pick me up but he said he is officer Nick Thomas. When I told him that I will have my lawyer look into it and I ask him for his address, he curse a me and hang up the phone. He then called my brother and told him the same thing. He has all our information. We need help.

I received a call from this foreign guy a couple weeks ago and he said owed 500.00 for a payday loan back in Oct 2010.  He gave me a number to call back 1-347-457-3021 and said his name was Alex Mathews.  Today I get two calls from this foreign guy saying I need to call 1-347-560-5022 and ask for Max Dillard about a important legal matter.  It was the same guy who called me a few weeks ago.  I know it is the same guy cause I recognized the foreign voice.

Received a call from this number....asking for some "female name" that I didn't recognize.  When I said I think you have the wrong number he says: "well tell me you phone number then."  I said "I am not gonna do that and you should know that anyways."  He says, "ooh don't get smart with me......" at which point I lost interest and said "bye, bye" and hung up....he was still talking when I did pressed Call End.

FOOLS!

Got the same call..saying there was a law suit against my social security number. First time he called he was Officer David Young, second time he was Officer Adam Jones. Same man, same voice. Said it was a federal investigation. I made a report with my police department so he can be traced. I suggest you all do the same. I have not answered his calls and don't plan to.... Be careful!

I also got a call today from them today and the man said his name was officer frank smith and when i ask important questions they raised their voices at me started yelling at me and said see me in court tomorrow and that i should be there and if i wasnt i would be arrested but when i asked for the address for the court house they said they couldnt disclose that information i say we need to start a petition and sew them for harrasment cause this has been going on for years.

they tried calling me again today and this time they said they would put a block on my drivers licensse but when i asked for their address and location they told me they are not at liberty to give me their address and when i asked them for the phone number and address of the place that gave me the loan  they hung up.

Today I received a phone call from a number showing as 0000000000.  I don't answer unknown calls so I let the call go to voicemail.  The caller called me back 3 times.  On the third call, he left me a message saying his name was Officer Adam Jones and that I was being investigated as part of a federal investigation and that I needed to call him today to avoid jail time.  The number I was told to call was 347-560-5022.  I have no idea what this is about, but the whole thing sounded strange to me.  I will not be calling him back.  The caller had a very strong accent and I had difficulty deciphering the message.

I work for a nursing home and receive numerous calls from a 0000000000 number and a guy saying his name is Officer Davis, he calls 2-3 times a day asking for different employees and when i tell him I cannot transfer the call he ask if I can give him their SS# and a different telephone number. I finally told him that I would turn them into the FBI, he then called me a F***ing [***] and hung up. When I called the number back it said their VM was full and to call back... He called again 10 minutes after that incident and when he asked me for another phone number I gave him his own and he again called me the name above and hung up.... I am sure I will be receiving more calls, and will continue on pissing him off :)

Last week someone with a thick foriegn accent called my work place. He asked for me and when I asked him where he was calling from and what it was in ref to he cursed me out. He continued to call many times and it did not matter who answered the phone - he still cursed them out. The police were called/came. He called again and the police officer got on the phone with him. Again he didnt care who was on the phone - he cursed out the police officer. I called the ftc and filed a complaint. This wasn't the first one they recieved!

I got a call from these people today...did some research and called them back.  Told them that I was turning the number over to the Local Sheriff's Dept. and FBI and for the record I myself am a Sheriff's Deputy and we were going to take them down for fraud.  The gentleman on the other end then said with a very thick foreign accent "f- you" "bye bye" and hung up.  Then to just add insult to injury I called them about twenty more times..now they just answer "hello" and when they figure out who I am-they hang up.  It's a fraud big time--don't fall for it!

We got the same kind of call today. First the [***] calls my job and yells @ the office manager because there are all women in the office. Then I get home to a message on my voicemail that we have committed a federal offense and need to call asap, and then he says God Bless. I call back and it was the most unprofessional call and joke of my life. The guy is yelling and cursing at me. Telling me that I am going to jail tomorrow, because I did not pay a payday loan. What is weird is that we did submit an application online last year but declined to accept the loan. The joker that called had all of our personal information. I am really worried. We filed a complaint with the sheriff's office and going to keep going as far as we can to pursue the [***] so they do not do this again to anyone else

I have been receiving numerous calls from this number that comes up as +0000000000.  They call several times a day including weekends and Sundays.  Most of the time they don’t leave a message but they have left a few voicemails.  The first couple voicemails are difficult to understand but it was an Indian sounding man identifying himself as “Frank Smith” informing me that there is a legal case filed against me and against my SS# over some type of payday loan.  I know this is not possible because I am active duty military and payday loans have been banned for active military folks.  Mr. Smith did leave a phone number to call back and I called and spoke with someone who identified himself as “Shane Blake”.  He told me the same thing that Mr. Smith told me in the voicemail.  I politely asked him to send me this information in writing so it can be confirmed.  He then asked me if I wanted to settle this matter today then I could and that it was imperative that I do so immediately.  I said, “Once I receive the confirmation in writing, then I would.”  He then said he could fax it to me.  I told him, “No, I need this confirmed in writing by certified mail.”  He then got a little hostile and threatened to call my employer (US Navy) and then he was going to proceed with a criminal case and send the local authorities to come and get me.  I have reported this to my Chain of Command and they have gotten Navy Legal and NCIS involved.  I have been instructed to inform them of this information and refer them to the Navy Legal Office and NCIS if they call me back.  This is not legitimate for a number of reasons.  They don’t identify themselves properly.  If it was legit then the real phone number would appear on my caller ID.  They are using abusive and predatory tactics to get you to pay something you may or may not even owe.  They are non compliant with the FDCPA and refuse to mail out a confirmation in writing.

Kudos to "Sam" for giving the most intelligent and informative posts on this scam. READ, Bookmark and use as needed:

https://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-631-456-4041/2

I have been receiving phone calls from this group since late April / early May of 2010.  There is a good chance that they also attempted to contact me roughly two years ago before I entered into Chapter 7 Bankruptcy protection, as I faintly remember hearing the same script more or less.

As others have stated, the callers are difficult to understand.  Generally speaking their command of the English language is quite poor and their accents are hard to follow. At times they will get certain words or phrases mixed up.  It would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that they had:

a) Your SSN
b) Your home address
c) Your work address
d) Your banking info
e) Names, numbers and potentially the addresses of "references"
f) A complete and total lack of ethics and a basic understanding of the FDCPA.  

I have personally filed reports with the following agencies, often with limited (if any) success:

Local Police
my state's Attorney General's office
FTC
FBI
Secret Service

Generally the local police won't be able to help much.  The callers are using a combination of prepaid cell phones and VoIP, making them difficult to trace.  Also at their disposal are various spoofing tactics being implemented to catch people off guard - meaning the number that appears on your Caller ID isn't the number that is calling you for starters.  Without gaining a subpoena for the billing information for the numbers in question, the local police won't be able to get very far.  

My state's Attorney General's office couldn't offer much assistance either.  I received a form letter in the mail that my complaint was received and I would be contacted if they needed additional info.  It was more or less the same information I obtained from the FTC.  They each advised me not to give the individuals over the phone any account information or to authorize payment.  That's just common sense, though.

I never got anything from the FBI, either.  There is a good chance that since I haven't suffered a monetary loss that my concerns are low on the totem pole.  I hate to say this, but that is truly the case. Unless you were in the hole for a $1,000 (or more) you aren't going to get much more than "sorry to hear about your situation, change your phone number and move on".  I seemed to get some activity from the Secret Service.  I spoke with agent Doug Zloto. (Google him, referencing threads like these plus his name and you'll find his number also)  He seemed to care a bit more than the average person, but after giving him access to my Google Voice account, there has been no further activity from him that I'm aware of.

In the meantime I changed the wireless number the fraudsters had access to, they have no direct way to get a hold of me.  (Calls at work have ceased for some reason)  That in turn resulted in my "references" getting phone calls from the crooks.  Here is a word of caution for women that have been getting these calls - don't say anything and just hang up.  The callers are quite abusive towards women callers.  Why?  Possibly the culture.  If they are Indian / Pakistani, women are second class citizens there.  You will be treated like garbage.  This happened to a family member when she was trying her best to be extremely nice over the phone.  

The callers currently attempt to reach me through the female family member and an unused Google Voice number that they managed to find of mine.  I keep the Google Voice number open because, well, I can't delete it yet.  So, about every day, 4-5 times a day for the last week, I get voice messages from them.  It's usually just two full messages though - the other calls are broken up with static or they are attempts to read the script until the callers then screw up.  Really, they are that adamant on getting the script 100% that they will hang up mid-sentence and call back 30 seconds later.  

At this point it's a stalemate with these people.  

1) While they have the lion's share of information on us, they can't really do anything with this information.  

Why?  Think about it.

If they were to ever take funds out of your account without authorization, it's fraud and worse (for them) it is traceable.  That's why they won't do anything with your information, contrary to threats they make.  The money from your account has to go somewhere, and either your bank or a law enforcement agency can determine where the money was routed.  As a bank customer you are protected - you'd get the stolen money back in your account after 7-10 business days and the bank would be temporarily out the funds deducted from your account while they conducted their investigation.  The bank, along with law enforcement, would track down the fraudsters and apprehend them.  The fraudsters do not want to incur the wrath of a bank, just extort money out of you.  Remember that.    

Your authorization would absolve the bank from any and all liability, leaving you holding the bag.  Never give them authorization for anything - for all you know the call is recorded.  

2) We have no information on them.

Seriously, this has been going on at least since 2008, possibly longer than that based on some accounts. (6 years??? Holy crap!)  You would think someone would have slipped up by now.  Sadly, they haven't.  We can continue to grow our own intel on them and compile lists of aliases and phone numbers used, along with paraphrases of scripts used in order to educate other victims.  I'm actually putting together a site now in the meantime where I'll host audio files and lists of previous numbers used.  800notes.com is great, but no two calls are exactly the same.  It would be nice to have a site dedicated to the scam and how it works.

So that's where I am with these calls.  I have suffered no monetary loss, though I have been harassed both at home and at work.  They threaten me with arrest and other "fun" things in order to get me convinced I have to pay them.  My friends and family have been targeted and local and federal law enforcement agencies haven't been able to put a stop to things.  So, it is what it is.  I am out a wireless phone number I had for roughly six years, which is terrible since I was using that line when looking for a new job.  

Whenever I'm bored I spoof my number using Google Voice and return the calls.  I've called them the poster children for birth control, etc.  Basically a lot of nasty things that I'm sure the moderators here wouldn't appreciate me repeating - bottom line nothing nice.  I always like to close saying their parents must be real proud knowing their sons weren't man enough to get real jobs.  That usually gets a decent response.  

Way I see it - they can't do anything to me. (Despite a threat yesterday that my life would be f'ed up)  They can threaten all they want but my credit is frozen and my bank information has changed.  I've changed the only number they could really access me directly on and I've instructed my employer and family to not answer the calls.  I just call and harass them now when I find a few extra seconds.  What's the worst they can do to me?  Charge me with harassment?  

Nope, then they would have to identify themselves.

Oh, and don't bother contacting Cashnet USA about the calls.  Their "fraud" department could honestly care less.  Their "investigation" is merely a means of buerocratic CYA.  I would even be surprised at this point if actual law enforcement is involved in any shape, way or form at this time.  

There is a good chance that the information these crooks have on us was obtained from Cashnet USA - either from a database leak or from a collector that was once authorized by Cashnet to call on delinquent customers.  The other chance is they have access to Teletrack, and pulled all of our information off of there.

https://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-646-274-1143/3

For at least the last four years, possibly longer, a group has been calling former payday loan applicants advising them that they have defrauded a bank and are now being sued for non-payment of a loan.  The callers will claim to be calling on behalf of an attorney's office (name varies), the Dept. of Law and Investigation, ACS, or other similar combinations below:

United Legal Processing Division
Midline Marketing
Crime Monitoring Services
Monetary Crime Division
U.S. National Bank
Attorney General’s Office (usually in California)
American Legal Services
Affidavit Consolidation Services (ACS)

You will be threatened with arrest, a costly trial and possibly worse.  In no shape, way or form can you be arrested for non-payment on a consumer debt.  Do not believe these threats, as they are without merit and cannot be carried out in the manner they allege.  

Who are they?

In the past when pressed by law enforcement for an address, the callers have provided the following information:

David Morgan and Associates
Morgan & Associates
Morgan Associates
954-727-8481
1155 Northwest 85th Street
Wintergarden, Florida  33150
(Address is likely invalid)

The collector's MO matches a once legit collections agency called Ellis Crosby & Associates.  Here are some links on them:

http://www.budhibbs.com/collectorpages/ellis_crosby_and_associates.htm
http://www.budhibbs.com/collectorpages/EllisCrosbyJudgment.pdf

They have been previously fined over $1.3 million for various violations.  They have been known to use phone banks in India to make their calls, which more or less coincides with the difficult to understand accent many of us detect when we are contacted.  

The last time this group went by any "official" name was back in 2008:

Ellis Crosby & Associates / Douglas & Morgan Associates
4494 Southside Boulevard Suite #200
Jacksonville Florida 32216
Phone:  800-928-3536 / (904) 928-3536
(Address is likely invalid)

There are NUMEROUS consumer alerts out against this group of individuals:

Florida:
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/061107/met_176207561.shtml

Kansas:  
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/01/ks_debt_collection.html

Colorado:  
http://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/press/ ... lls_likely_orig

Rhode Island:  
http://www.collectionscreditrisk.com/news/rho ... -3002135-1.html

West Virginia:
http://www.wvago.gov/internetloanscam.cfm

Missouri:
On July 15th, 2010 a Public Awareness Bulletin was sent out by Missouri Information Analysis Center.  

"..received reports from individuals in Ohio and Illinois reference suspicious telephone calls they received. In both instances, the callers are reporting that a voicemail is received from a man, with a Middle Eastern accent, identifying himself as an officer working with the Financial Crimes Unit.  The message indicates that the reason for the call concerns a loan made by the receiver or someone in the receiver's family. The voicemail requests that a return call be made and a telephone number is provided. When a return call is made, the caller is asked to provide personal identifying information such as their date of birth and social security number.

Reports indicate that the calls are frequent and persistent and that they even threaten arrest or legal action if information or money is not provided. It appears that the individuals making these calls may have access to some records connecting individuals and their relatives.  Missouri does not have a Financial Crimes Unit and all indications are that this is a fictitious agency. If you receive a similar phone call, please be advised that it is a scam and please contact your local law enforcement agency or the Missouri Information Analysis Center at 866-362-6422."

Bottom line:

Do not supply the callers with any additional information.  Inform them you have reported them to law enforcement and hang up.  If you haven't already, go ahead and report the calls to local law enforcement, your state's Attorney General and beyond.  Look up the local Secret Service branch's information in your area and get in contact with an agent there.  

If you ever applied for a cash advance online, your information is out there.  
Possible sources for the breach of your privacy are:

* The scammers obtained your information from Teletrack - a reporting agency used by many cash advance lenders to determine their risk lending to you.  The service is able to tell cash advance lenders if you have existing loans with other companies, for example.  Many state laws prohibit borrowers from having more than two cash advances out at the same time.

* The scammers created their own fake payday loan application site.  People looking for a cash advance went to the site and applied, thus freely providing the scammers with their information for malicious use at a later time.  

* The scammers were able to get into the database(s) of cash advance lenders - probable targets being Sonic Payday and Cashnet USA.  


How to protect yourself:

* Inform your employer.  You are likely getting calls at home and/or at work, so make sure your employer is aware the calls are part of a scam and to not take them seriously.  Advise the callers that they are no longer allowed to call you at work.  If they continue to call, document the date and time of the calls you received.  Save voice mails left if at all possible.  

* Change your number(s).  For some this may not be an option, for others a one-time number change can be done free of charge.

Be advised - any references you listed on your payday loan application will be contacted.  Let those people know that this is a scam, and they can disregard.

* Use Google Voice.  Google Voice is a great replacement voice mail system for just about any phone number you use.  Messages can be transcribed and voice mail recordings can be saved as mp3 files.  

Pro Tip - call the scammers with a Google Voice number before turning off your old phone numbers.  Make sure when you call you identify yourself so they can start up their script.  At any point after they have your information pulled up just hang up.  They will then start religiously calling your Google Voice number.  At this point, you are free to change your regular phone number(s) and enjoy not having these people ever call you again.  (And laugh at the fact these people are basically talking to a brick wall several times a day)

The scammers change their numbers frequently.  Law enforcement used to think it was because the callers ran out of minutes on their prepaid wireless accounts or they were shuttered due to fraud, but now they understand it's simply to evade detection by savvy consumers online.  With the proliferation of VoIP, it's even easier for the crooks to stay a couple of steps ahead of law enforcement.  Below is just a sampling of the 30+ numbers that have been used in recent memory.

1-201-244-7722
1-209-349-7382
1-209-797-2212
1-212-500-0839
1-213-256-0408
1-213-995-3039
1-281-763-0433
1-347-289-3902
1-347-844-6817
1-347-844-6831
1-424-354-4270
1-516-232-8905
1-516-232-8935
1-518-212-0219
1-561-300-8018
1-561-210-4185
1-626-200-4646
1-631-456-4041
1-646-274-1143
1-646-810-8635
1-650-241-4604
1-707-401-4056
1-707-633-2789
1-708-401-0535
1-716-442-2824
1-717-862-4080
1-718-705-8669
1-760-514-0132
1-760-563-5384
1-772-318-4938
1-850-201-1111
1-858-777-1977
1-859-908-2281
1-866-860-4509
1-877-226-7488
1-888-706-7463
1-888-771-9249
1-888-785-4479
1-909-327-4870

So can they really do anything to you?

It's not a simple yes or no answer.  Logic dictates that, if they really wanted to take you for a ride and drain your bank accounts, they already would have.  

So, why haven't they?  

Authorization.  

Why do you think you are being called so much?  Perhaps it is because they like the sound of your voice?  No, they have to have your authorization to take any form of payment from you, period.  The callers know their audience, and that audience is typically a bunch of people that have applied for payday loans in the past.  Most of those people they call couldn't afford an attorney if they wanted one, and are so used to receiving collections calls that so long as they sound like a real collector, they will likely be perceived as one.

Furthermore, they don't even really want to talk to your attorney - that just sounds official and scary enough.  A real attorney would take the callers to task and write them off as two-bit con artists.  The callers need you, in writing, to authorize payment against the fictitious debt they claim you owe.  Go ahead, ask them for proof you owe the debt - more commonly known as verification of debt.  See what they say.  A phone authorization carries very little weight, so if they have something signed by you on file, you are done for - and the callers know that.  That authorization is the only thing these callers are doing by the book, and for good reason.  If they just went all willy nilly and made an ACH debit from your checking account, without your written approval, you could in turn report the transaction as fraudulent to your financial institution.  In about 7-10 business days, you would get the funds returned to your account.  Then the scammers would be up against a bank and their team of lawyers and investigators.  

Bottom line:

If you haven't paid the callers a dime, don't.  If you planned on paying them to shut them up, just don't.  Remember - you are not being contacted by a legally licensed, ethically owned and operated collector.  Read up on the FDCPA - http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre27.pdf - and know your rights.

PS--The FBI sent out a Press Release on this scam just last week:

Extortion Scam Related to Delinquent Payday Loans

Washington, D.C.
December 07, 2010  FBI National Press Office
(202) 324-3691

— filed under: Press Release

The Internet Crime Complaint Center has received many complaints from victims of payday loan telephone collection scams. Callers claim the victim is delinquent in a payday loan and must repay the loan to avoid legal consequences. The callers purport to be representatives of the FBI, Federal Legislative Department, various law firms, or other legitimate-sounding agencies. They claim to be collecting debts for companies such as United Cash Advance, U.S. Cash Advance, U.S. Cash Net, and other Internet check-cashing services.

According to complaints received from the public, the callers have accurate data about victims, including Social Security numbers, dates of birth, addresses, employer information, bank account numbers, and the names and telephone numbers of relatives and friends. How the fraudsters obtained the personal information varies, but in some cases victims have reported they completed online applications for other loans or credit cards before the calls started.

The fraudsters relentlessly call the victim’s home, cell phone, and place of employment. They refuse to provide any details about the alleged payday loans and become abusive when questioned. The callers have threatened victims with legal actions, arrests, and, in some cases, physical violence if they do not pay. In many cases, the callers harass victims’ relatives, friends, and employers.

Some fraudsters have instructed victims to fax a statement agreeing to pay a certain amount, on a specific date, via a pre-paid Visa card. The statement further declares the victim will never dispute the debt.

If you receive these calls, do not follow the caller’s instructions. Rather, you should:

Notify your banking institutions.
Contact the three major credit bureaus and request an alert be put on your file.
Contact your local law enforcement agencies if you feel you are in immediate danger.
File a complaint at www.IC3.gov.
Tips to avoid becoming a victim of this scam:

Never give your Social Security number—or personal information of any kind—over the telephone or online unless you initiate the contact.
Be suspicious of any e-mail with urgent requests for personal financial information. The e-mail may include upsetting or exciting but false statements to get you to react immediately.
Avoid filling out forms in e-mail messages that request personal information.
Ensure that your browser is up-to-date and security patches have been applied.
Check your bank, credit, and debit card statements regularly to make sure that there are no unauthorized transactions. If anything looks suspicious, contact your bank and all card issuers.
When you contact companies, use numbers provided on the back of cards or statements

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/paydayloanscam_120710

We received a barrage of phone calls from an Adam yesterday looking for a person who had worked here.  He was insistent and demanding and flat-out rude. He didn't like it that I would not give him the information he was looking for. He wanted to talk to the employee, or have me give him her information. I explained if it was personal, he needed to contact her at home. First he said he tried and she didn't call back. Then he wanted her home phone number, and what was I going to do to help him. He "blew up our phones" as the kids say and repeatedly called for a stretch, including calling my coworker a vulgar name. We called our local police, they called him and he hung up on the officer.  He called back again. We hung up on him a few times, then finally the last time I spoke with him I swore up and down and left and right that the person he wanted wasn't here, and if she were, I'd make her talk to him so he would leave us alone. He eased up a bit, then asked if my manager could help him. I explained he could talk to my manager but he wouldn't like what the manager would have to say either.  So he backed down. He claimed to be located in Brooklyn, NY. I don't buy this.  We haven't gotten any calls today, so I'm not sure if he will stop. I did contact the state consumer protection and the FTC. We will see if they can shut these whackos down. Last week I got a call from the American Law Division, Rox Murphy (really?) and he told me I could perform an obscenity to him. At least with them when I called back and talked to a supervisor, he seemed apologetic and we haven't heard from that "company" since.

A person called Dennis Peterson or Steven Davis calls from this company doesn't speak clear english. Mr Peterson told my office manager to F** off and they would continue calling us.  The number shows up on our caller ID 000000000. The actual owner of the practice has tried to talk to them and they continue to be rude. We have contacted Our local phone company verizon and they referred us to the attorney general office to file a complaint. We tried to call the number back to speak with a supervisor and the woman said to just pay your bill. We tried to be nice explain the harrassing calls and language she also didn't speak clear english and said pay your bill. From eveerything we have read and investigated this company is a FRAUD... And we will be filing a claim against them.  I hope an authority figure can arrest and prosecute this company.

These people are calling me at home starting at 5:30 a.m. The threaten to have me arrested. Wanted my credit card numbers, checking account numbers etc. They have called several people in my office and told them I was going to be arrested. They are nasty. They wanted money now. Help!

This person is bothering me as well trying to get money from me which I do not owe to him. He gets nasty with me over the phone about going to court and trying to get my credit card infromation, which I will not give to him. He will not leave me alone.

Rec'd a call from Officer Macdonald guessing Ronald is his first name, with this as a callback number.  It showed up as 000-000-0000 on my caller ID.  I've had these type of calls before and never pick up the phone.  If I don't recognize the number, I don't answer it.  It's a scam.   Will be sending my complaints out yet again.

I received a phone call from these people again today.  It must have been the 10th in 2 weeks. After I told the guy that i would only speak to someone whom I could understand and that even then I would need all the information in writing so I could forward it to my attorney, he got nasty and hung up.  I was still thinking about it and became more and more annoyed.  So I found a new twist on how to annoy them back, but it only works if you have time.  I call every ten minutes and just bother them with stupid questions.  This will not keep the NEXT scammers from calling you, but it will stop the current folks and keep them from calling some other unsuspecting individuals who may not know what they are up to.