Keep getting home improvement scam calls. Decided to have a little fun with one of them.

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Hitting them in the pocketbook gets their attention.

The problem is that its the wrong group of people getting hit in the pocketbook. The origins of the telemarketing is profiting from the deceptive gambling of the contractors money. The hope is that the contractor will do something about it and from the looks of those thousands of complaints, they won't. Its highly doubtful anyone will get them to act on the information of a telemarketers illegal calls when many have issues with HA they can't solve as it is.

Maybe I can accused of being "odd" again with this post!

I decided to actually do a little research before posting here.  It seems that there is a lot of misinformation going around because no one has actually investigated anything.

First, it appears that HA charges a fee for annual membership of somewhere between $250 and $300 a year (as per the complaints I read at the oft quoted BBB).  Then there is another service that they provide that also ends up with a fee, some sort of help desk thing (off the HA website).  Lead prices vary according to location and type of service, also they have two different types of leads, market match and exact match that are charged a premium rate.

It also states:

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Q. Do I only pay for the jobs I win? A. No, HomeAdvisor does not provide or guarantee jobs. You will be charged for each lead you receive, whether or not you ultimately win the job, and regardless of whether the customer hires any pro to complete the job.

Which I assume would be in the contract as well.  Since I don't want to sign up, I can't get exact contract information or pricing.

I doubt that the blanket statement "The contractors will and do get their money back from HA." applies to all.  They might be getting some of their money back, but I doubt they are getting it all back.  I certainly would never state that all leads are $100 based on the comment from one contractor.  The complaints I am reading (and no I did not real all 1,000 some complaints) seem to come mostly from people who have absolutely no business experience and don't have a clue what they signed up for.  One guy said something about being 20 and simply wanting to make some money for college in his poorly worded complaint.  I would be willing to bet that all of the contractors that are signing up are fairly new and don’t know how to generate business or have been around for a short while and are struggling, again because they don’t know how to run a business, advertise, or generate leads.

So, we are making the claim that if this contractor or a group of contractors back charges this outfit, they will a. get their money back, and b. incur charges against HA.  This may not always be the case as HA can dispute that back charge showing as evidence the contract signed by the contractor.  So, this "refund" is not a given in every case.  The contractors will certainly never get their annual fee refunded, so HA is still coming out ahead in that respect.

While it will certainly help to “poison” the contractor pool, it will not have a large dent as there will be new “contractors” signing up every day, and they will be paying the annual fee, plus whatever other fees there are in addition to the lead fees.
I still say that suing them would be the best bet.  You can get $500 statutory damages for each violation of the TCPA.  Small claims court is not the place to sue them, if you would like to get the treble damages.  That was proven in this thread who sued someone for 18 calls for $8,500 (which was not correct since 18 X $500= $9,000) and only got $1,300.  Either the case was extremely flawed, not presented properly, or the judge simply did not have a clue.  I am wondering though how a case was filed in that court for $8,500 when the limit is $7,500.  In any case, the limit was exceeded, and treble damages could not be awarded in that court, so possibly money was left on the table.  If each person sued the contractor and HA and won, then that would be a bigger loss than the $100 or less that the contractor might charge back.  We also must assume that they are giving these leads out to multiple contractors who may not be using them or may not want the job.  So, HA is collecting money from those contractors as well, thus negating the chargeback of one or two contractors.

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Our strength is in our numbers - by sharing pieces of information each of us has we are putting together a free and public phone number directory with information no other service can provide.

Right from the home page, and I still believe this should be true. But not answering never adds to the body of knowledge.

You're right - the contractor isn't buying a customer, but they do believe they are buying a valid lead. The key word is 'valid'.  The contractor knows that they may not get the job, but supposedly there is actually a job. If the leads they are paying for aren't actual jobs, they aren't going to be happy. This is a key difference.

I'm very upfront with the contractors. I let them know I was constantly called in violation of the DNC list, and this was the only way to find out who was paying for it. I tell them they need to charge-back or otherwise get a refund for the lead, so HA makes no money off the deal (if it's a charge-back, even better). This is a key element - let the contractor know what's going on. If you give out a fake name and ignore the contractor when they call - HA wins. Your 'fake' lead is indistinguishable from any number of dead end leads. Make them know the lead is bad, why it's bad, why they should get their money back, and let them wonder about the rest of them. This doesn't take any magic skill, as some here have suggested. Just be honest with them.

Am I trying to put out a fire with a water pistol? Maybe. But I'm trying. I think it's worth it. If it costs HA one contractor from ever using them again, that's a lot of potential referral revenue they miss out on. Enough water pistols, and it's going to be noticed. If HA is going for the short-term gain, I'd love it if it costs them dearly in the long-term.

True, there are different levels of service.

1) Basic signup. One of the contractors I talked to used that, and usually didn't buy leads, maybe he won't again. Being signed up with them is like being signed up with Angies Lists. There's a "legitimacy" there since they are supposedly screened (but maybe not according to this lawsuit filed in CA). This doesn't involve telemarketing, so it's not really relevant. I have no problem with this business model.

2) "whether or not you ultimately win the job" - okay, they should understand they are paying for a opportunity for a job. I may hire someone else, or I may decide to not do the job. However, the contractor does have a reason to believe that there is a potential job, and not getting 'leads' from people getting harassed by telemarketers on behalf of HA.

I'm sure some of the leads are legit, so I have no problems with those. However, how many people on the DNC besides myself got calls? 1 or 2 more? Thousands more? I'm betting on the later. So there's good opportunity to follow these illicit leads to their source - and make some contractors re-think their business relationship with HA.

3) $100? Yes, different leads cost different amounts. I chose "roofing" since the telemarketer seemed to want to push for roofing, siding, or new windows as the type of job. Those are all generally going to be larger jobs, which are going to have larger cost/lead rates. The foreign telemarketer probably gets paid a lot better for the larger jobs, which is why they push for those specific types of services. If you're going to break the law for a lead, it might as well be for a large job than a small job.  That's the cost I was provided by the contractors I spoke to.

Contractors do get their money back. You can read on the BBB complaints where that has happened. However, none of the ones I've see mention that the lead was bad because of telemarketing. When you do initiate a complaint with HA with BBB, there is a page that popups up requesting you to first contact a couple of email address directly first, rather than file a complaint. I'll wager that any illicit telemarketing complaints are handled without BBB intervention at no loss to the contractors.  But you have to let the contractor know. And I'm sure I"m not the only one. But I definitely wanted to find out.

Yes, on an individual level, filing a lawsuit could be a good way to go. I have never suggested that someone not file a lawsuit - and I'd be willing to provide them information that I have if they want it (which is also why I post on my experiences here). But honestly, what percentage of people would be able willing to go to that level? Probably smaller than the number of people that could more easily interact with contractors. However, even if that's the way you want to go, you still have to answer the phone, provide some information, and see who calls back.

Someone suggested that I sue the contractors. Well, I guess I could do that, but I have nothing against the contractors themselves. And since they are extremely upfront about using HA (after all, they believed that I directly contacted HA for bids on a job), I don't need to go to that level to get information. If you've gotten some of these telemarketing calls, they are very insistent that you agree to receive calls from the contractors despite being on the DNC/etc. Okay, I can agree to that, but that doesn't absolve the telemarketer (or by extension, HA) for the original call. I personally see no moral value to suing the contractors, and if the recording of me agreeing to be contacted by the contractors comes up - it would likely kill my case, anyway.

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The contractor knows that they may not get the job, but supposedly there is actually a job.

They should know consumers who go to HA, might be just "window shopping' prices for a DIY project they intend to do themselves and never intended on hiring anyone. The element of paying for a lead that was never an actual job,  already exists.

All I see your method doing is add problems for those who are already aware they are not getting what they paid for and those who are satisfied with HA aren't going to care about one person's complaint of illegal telemarketing calls. They will just absorb the loss and bill it to the next customer that hires them.

All the while those telemarketers and HA are raking in the money and what is the end game for it all? Just to persuade the Contractors to include in their complaints that telemarketers are calling people illegally?  I can't fathom the justifications of  knowing those behind the calls are the ones coming out on top and those who suffer the most are to be expected to bear the brunt, just so they make an addition to their complaints.

Read the BBB complaints. Contractors do complain and do get refunds.  I have contact information on one of the contractors and I'd be willing to ask them later if they got a refund.

I get your point - they know someone could be window shopping (literally - if they are wanting replacement windows). I'm sure they understand that. That's part of any contractor going out and providing quotes for a job. But when you tell them you've been repeatedly called in violation of the DNC, that's another matter. But you have to tell them - don't leave them hanging. Don't let them believe your just another window shopper.

"Being signed up with them is like being signed up with Angies Lists."  That's because it is Angie's List and also Service Magic (I worked for someone a few years ago that got leads from Service Magic, although none of those ever panned out either).

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Don't let them believe your just another window shopper.

In all honesty, I don't think its going to matter if they know or not, the loss is the same. The difference is you created an unnecessary expense, just to let them know and what is the expectation for the effort, so they can include "illegal telemarketing" to their complaint list?
I doubt a contractor is going to be appreciative enough that you cost them money, to want to add it to their complaint or make a complaint based on it. Even if they managed to get a refund, they still had to go through the BS to get it back and thats no picnic to be thankful over.
So you didn't read any complaints made that mentions telemarketing, did it ever occur that others have told some contractors already or do you believe your the first? That tells me its not important enough to them to bother mentioning it.

Personally I think your just rallying support to beat a dead horse, but thats just my view on the subject.

Has anyone given any thoughts that those telemarketing calls could be a 3rd rate marketing company? Think about it, they offer leads cheaper to start up contractors and create an account with homeadvisor as a fake general contractor, which allows them to get more leads in a variety of services. Then when they are contacted, they pass on the leads to their clients. The lead they paid homeadvisor for is paid back by giving the lead to several of their clients and thus a profit for them. They might even tell their clients they are an affiliate of homeadvisor, so it masks their true identity.

Johansen v. HomeAdvisor, Inc. et al, No. 2:2016cv00121 - Document 32 (S.D. Ohio 2016)
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district ... 0121/191337/32/
------------------------------------------
AIRQUIP, INC.,
on behalf of itself and all others similarly situated,
Plaintiff,
v.
HOMEADVISOR, INC.,
IAC/INTERACTIVECORP, and
DOES 1 through 10,
Defendants.
Case 1:16-cv-01849 Document 1 Filed 07/19/16 USDC Colorado
https://www.roofcalc.org/wp-content/uploads/H ... -2016-07-19.pdf

12. Defendants’ systemic deception and fraudulent business practices were revealed
in recent filings in a lawsuit in which HomeAdvisor is a defendant and in which HomeAdvisor is
seeking to disassociate itself from liability for violations of the Telephone Consumer Protection
Act (“TCPA”) arising from unsolicited telemarketing allegedly committed by a third-party that
generated Leads purchased by HomeAdvisor.
13. In its eagerness to shed liability for illegal telemarketing, HomeAdvisor has
acknowledged one of the many fundamental and systemic flaws of its business and practices.
And HomeAdvisor’s admissions provide direct evidence of the deception and fraud perpetrated
by HomeAdvisor on Plaintiff and the Class.
14. Moreover, HomeAdvisor’s pulling back of the curtain in the TCPA lawsuit
provides confirmation and validation of the numerous and consistent complaints of Class
Members (as well as a former HomeAdvisor employee) that HomeAdvisor’s business model is a
scam and that the Leads it provides to Class Members are largely unvetted by HomeAdvisor,
secured by affiliates and third-parties using highly questionable methods, and predominantly
bogus.

--------------------------------------

Plaintiffs: Samuel Zean, on behalf of himself and all others similarly situated
Defendants: HomeAdvisor, Inc.
Court Name: USDC Minnesota, Minnesota
Case Number: 0:15cv111
Filing Date: 1/16/2015
Summary:
Class action for violations of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act.
The allegedly defendant made unauthorized phone calls to the
plaintiff’s phone using computer software designed to “blast” phone
calls and voicemail messages to numerous telephone numbers
simultaneously
------------------------------------
Homeadvisor's Terms and Conditions for consumers who sign up for services:
https://www.homeadvisor.com/rfs/popup/consumerTandCPop.jsp
#5 is the TCPA consent

I see you failed to read the actual cases as the first one was dismissed:  https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district ... 0121/191337/32/

No, I did read it and was going to add more to show that people are aware and how others have even mentioned that Case in their TCPA Cases, but realized I wasn't signed in. So I just put "Light reading" and was going to sign in to add , but then thought, I don't know anything about this Law stuff and  its Turkey-Day, so I just abandoned it, since I couldn't delete it.

I got those from inputting "homeadvisor TCPA violation" in a search.  Anyone interested and want to know, theres more links I didn't add. My initial thoughts were it might be useful to TT or anyone who is looking for methods of getting at HomeAdvisor, without "paying them indirectly". Some of those Cases mentions names for the telemarketers HA used.

I make the appointment and send them to the wrong address 50 miles from my house. I give them a bogus phone number too. If they won't go for that I let them call, don't answer and block the number they called from. Hope it's pissing them off.

So you send them to someone's house so that those innocent parties can be annoyed, and also give them a phone number that might also belong to an innocent party?

Actually, doing that makes you WORSE than the scammers who are calling you...