fraud\scam or good service??

Fighting Back.... Finally good questions...

They won't be answered tonight but by Monday no problem... Keep them coming this is what I was looking for. In my very first post I asked everyone to hold off so I could do just that... But of course you always run into those who can't refrain.

Until my next post... It's family time.

F... I will take this question as well

Answered by Monday...sorry, family time.

"Do you know if any of these complaints have been resolved?
7 choice examples...can you provide me with 100, maybe 200, maybe more?" -- Perhaps, since you work for the company, YOU can provide 100, 200, or more and let the skeptics know if and how they were resolved!

As for the restaurant analogy, I don't see that it is an accurate example of your business.  But, using your example, you left out many background factors:
1-length of time restaurant has been in business
2-from the sound, you've chosen a "fine dining" establishment, so where did the Chef work before and what are his credentials?
3-I'm going to say the diner is a person that not only tipped the valet, but also the maitre d', the wine steward, lavatory attendants, and plan to leave the wait person an elegant tip, as well as the coat room attendant, and the valet signals my chauffeured vehicle.   And, I still plan to leave tips, even though my main course was not to my liking.
As you've ascertained, I also have friends and business associates of my wealth and stature, and often have business lunch/dinners.
Are you REALLY going to refuse to comp my meal??  -- That IS your option, but it could also very well be the road to the demise of your restaurant.

I started to type but decided not to waste my time.  Did you mention the name of your company somewhere in your ramblings?

....and you did a great job of wasting space.

Someplace about 3-4 pages back!

I have posted this information before- NEVER get a debt relief firm that you have to pay money to. They will never work in your best interest. Non-profit groups, well, that's what they do. I had a friend who lost money on Mutual Funds, but the investor still got paid, each year. They lost you money, but still paid themselves? It is stressful, but work with the companies you owe money to. The last words they want to hear is "I'm filing for bankruptcy". Debt relief companies work like lawyers- billable hours. The longer the case gets to be settled, the more you pay. They are FOR-profit companies, right?

Well, well someone who claims to be moving on keeps posting here.

Oh, look. It's Monday and he came back as a she.

Maybe s/he is a Hermat!

"• Refuse to pay everyone for the first week of work
Please tell me what this means (smells like a comment a disgruntled employee would make..maybe not a C&A employee). Not everyone is cut out to do what we do, we deal with very fragile people, people in financial distress and these issues are typically caused by severe hardship i.e. medical issues, death,  divorce or separation, unemployment, business failure...the list is almost endless... do you think it's easy?"

This comment has been nagging at me since Friday.  I'll hold off saying more until/if you come back and respond to the other questions you seemed so eager to see posted.

I thought I would provide the following as a precursor to answering any questions.

Credit is only issued to legal (of age) adults, whether secured or unsecured. In order to accomplish this consumers must execute (notice I didn’t say read) contracts/agreements and adhered to their terms or potentially severe remedies including penalties are afforded to the issuer.

Is there anyone on this board that disagrees with the statement above?

The C&A enrollment process.

Consumers enroll in our debt relief program by executing a Service Agreement (SA) with the law office. Prior to enrollment each client is put through a series of evaluations to determine if the client is suitable for the program. Among other things this includes an analysis of the consumers’ monthly income, liabilities and assets as well as, the reason (hardship) why a debt relief option is sought. This analysis confirms whether or not a client is suitable for the negotiation/settlement program offered by Cockburn and Associate and as equally important, their motivation to participate. All consumers are made aware of their options to include Bankruptcy and/or Consumer Proposal and the up and downside of each.

Upon completion of this analysis and prior to executing the SA, we require all potential clients to participate in and complete a recorded third party verification (TPV) to ensure continuity between how the enrollment agent describes the program and how the potential client perceives this description. This TPV is automated, consistent and concise in its questions and/or statements and requires acknowledgement of each question and/or statement by the consumer. If the questions are not answered correctly the enrollment process stops.

Here are some of the questions and statements asked on this call;

1.    This recording system is designed to confirm that you are experiencing a financial hardship and would like to enter into a debt settlement program. To confirm your selection, please say “yes” after the tone, then press the pound key.

2.    Do you understand that the law firm has been retained to settle your UNSECURED debts and no other services, and that all services are provided on a best efforts basis? If so please say "yes" after the tone, then press the pound key.

3.    Are all of the debts that you have enrolled into the program in your name, or that of a co-debtor? If so please say "yes" after the tone, then press the pound key.

4.    Have you read the agreement with the law office and understand that it controls anything you may have been told about the service? If so please say "yes" after the tone, then press the pound key.

Let’s stop right here… The first question I ask every a complainant, “did you read the service agreement cover to cover” almost every complainant tells me that they didn’t read the agreement cover to cover, when I tell them the recorded TPV indicates just the opposite they become combatant, they say things like they never participated in the recorded call, when I offer to send it to them, all of a sudden it’s been doctored…I’ve heard it all.

5.    Do you understand that not making payments to your creditors may result in litigation and may also have a derogatory impact on your credit score? If so please say "yes" after the tone, then press the pound key.

6.    Are any of the debts enrolled part of an active lawsuit? If so please say “yes” after the tone, then press the pound key.

7.    Do you understand that all of our fees are already factored into your monthly payment? If so please say "yes" after the tone, then press the pound key.

8.    Do you understand that we do not pay or assume your debt owed? If so please say "yes" after the tone, then press the pound key.

9.    Do you understand that all payment changes must be submitted at least 5 business days in advance? If so please say "yes" after the tone, then press the pound key.

10.    If you have mortgages, car loans or bank accounts with any of the creditors that you have enrolled into the program do you understand you may need to change bank accounts within 30 days and those accounts tied to the secured assets will have to be removed from the program if so please say yes after the tone then press the pound key.

11.    Do you understand that we do not make monthly payments to your Creditors and we will, upon sufficient savings, negotiate settlements with your Creditors that are approved by you? If so please say "yes" after the tone then press the pound key.

Following this process, the enrollment agent will upload the SA, TPV and any supplied creditor correspondence to the consumer’ electronic file which signals the underwriting department to begin a thorough review of the file. Once again the debt load is examined (amounts, credit type and creditor correspondence), followed by a complete review of the consumers budget analysis, monthly contribution plan, hardship and banking information. Providing an underwriting approval is granted a Welcome Package is generated and sent to the consumer via a best reach source.

The welcome call department then contacts the consumer to complete a standard recorded welcome call. This process (for the third time) provides the consumer (along with the Welcome Package) with all program details including but not limited to; how to deal with the collection process, fees for the service including how and when they are collected, the firms cancellation policy, requirements of the client during this process etc… During the call the consumer is provided the opportunity to ask questions or have any concerns addressed. This call typically takes 30 minutes to 1 hour and only when completed does a “consumer” become a “client” of the firm.

As an FYI…Our SA and Welcome Package contains no fine print and is extremely easy to read and understand. We provide a cooling off period between the execution and the welcome call for consumers to carefully think this process through before fully committing. If a client decides to cancel at any time during the 30 days following the date of execution there is no questions asked, no fees accessed and any and all funds contributed to the program are returned.

Do credit card companies afford consumers the same detailed disclosures and understanding of what they are getting involved in? I don't think so!


Best regards,
Mike

Mike Reilly is an American and Canadian football quarterback currently playing for the Edmonton Eskimos of the Canadian Football League. He was signed by the Pittsburgh Steelers as an undrafted free agent in 2009.

Well, according to the BBB, you did have something to do with Silverthorn & Lupolover, LLP in Canada. The BBB says that Silverthorn & Lupolover, LLP was acquired by Cockburn & Associate on Aug. 8, 2012. And the same BBB page shows that someone named Mr. Michael Reilly was the "Customer Contact" person.

In fact, there is evidence that shows that there is still a law office headed by Mark Anthony Silverthorn in Kitchener, ON, and a Cockburn & Associate headed by Shelia Annette Cockburn on Yonge St. in Toronto. That can be checked out at The Law Society of Upper Canada Lawyer and Paralegal Directory at:
http://www2.lsuc.on.ca/LawyerParalegalDirectory/index.jsp
(main page: http://www.lsuc.on.ca/index.aspx )

So perhaps you DID have something to do with explaining at least the Silverthorn & Lupolover LLP contracts to potential clients. Perhaps you would like to be more specific in explaining one of their contracts to us. Here is a link to what purports to be a copy of a contract that Silverthorn & Lupolover, LLP had its clients sign and some commentary about it:

http://getoutofdebt.org/34404/silverthorn-lup ... contract-review

Is this an accurate copy of the contract that you had either Canadians or U.S. citizens sign? Would you disagree with the interpretation of the contract by Steve Rhode on this site?

If you were offering this contract in the United States as a law firm, I sincerely doubt that you would be able to get away with it. The contract contains a term under "NOTICE OF CANCELLATION" that, "By canceling this Agreement you are terminating your relationship with Silverthorn & Lupolover, Lawyers, LLP, 30 Duke Street West, Suite 1001, Kitchener, Ontario N2H 3W5, and you specifically waive, release and hold Silverthorn & Lupolover, Lawyers, LLP, harmless from any and all claims arising from this Agreement."

But the ABA model rules has a prohibition against that, and those rules are adopted by most jurisdictions across the US:

"Client-Lawyer Relationship
Rule 1.8 Conflict Of Interest: Current Clients: Specific Rules
...
(h) A lawyer shall not:
(1) make an agreement prospectively limiting the lawyer's liability to a client for malpractice unless the client is independently represented in making the agreement; or
(2) settle a claim or potential claim for such liability with an unrepresented client or former client unless that person is advised in writing of the desirability of seeking and is given a reasonable opportunity to seek the advice of independent legal counsel in connection therewith."

(From
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professiona ... ific_rules.html )

But is Silverthorn and Lupolover, Lawyers, LLP, a law firm that would be covered by this ethical rule? Well, first of all, they SAY they are lawyers. It's in their name, fer cryin' out loud!

Also, paragraph 4 of the agreement, under "CLIENT OBLIGATIONS," says:

"S&L is a law firm and charges fees for its services as set out in this Service Agreement."

So they REALLY want you to take them seriously as a law firm.

But, I also see a clause 13 entitled "Final and Only Agreement," which says in all capital letters:

"NO VERBAL OR WRITTEN STATEMENTS OR PROMISES THAT ARE NOT CONTAINED HEREIN SHOULD BE RELIED ON AT ANY TIME BY CLIENT. THIS AGREEMENT REPRESENTS THE SOLE AND FINAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE PARTIES."

And I see no advice "in writing of the desirability" of the current or former client party of seeking "the advice of independent legal counsel in connection" with respect to settling claims or potential claims against Silverthorn & Lupolover, Lawyers LLP.

Were you sending any of these contracts to US clients in the United States?

And what good is a law firm that tells its client, as part of paragraph 4, "CLIENT OBLIGATIONS," that "S&L" is a law firm and charges fees for its services out of this agreement. We determine your eligibility for a debt settlement program, but we do NOT [emphasis in original] evaluate your unique credit and debt situation to determine the best debt relief option for you." ?!???

How come you are telling everyone in your contract (which includes an integration clause making all your verbal and other written assurances meaningless and unenforceable) that you DON'T evaluate their unique credit and debt situation, and then say to everyone here that you DO and advise that paying off one's debts is better than bankruptcy?

It sounds to me as though the law firm is more interested in representing and protecting itself than the client. That's OK to a certain extent, but in the U.S., there are rules that have the force of law that I think would prohibit your firm's use of an engagement contract like this. You are supposed to have malpractice insurance to cover yourself.

Speaking of the U.S., the BBB report on Cockburn and Associate (which doesn't show your name under "Client Support," by the way), shows only two addresses. One is located in Mississauga, ON L5N 6H5, and the other is located on Yonge St. in Toronto, ON M5C 1X6. However, if you visit the web site for this law firm, you will see it is titled, "Law Office of Cockburn & Associate, "Debt Settlement for Canadians." http://www.clegal.ca/

Yet, under "About Us" at http://www.clegal.ca/about , you will see:

"Leadership
Shelia Cockburn Esq.
"... Ms. Cockburn, a protégé of Mark Silverthorn and has over 8 years of legal experience dealing with litigation and prosecution matters in the areas of debt collections, business transactions and intellectual property. ...
Ms. Cockburn is licensed to practice law in the U.S. and Canada."

There is no "license to practice law in the U.S." that I am aware of. You can be registered to practice in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO), but that isn't a license to "practice law." People who are licensed in the USPTO without being licensed by a particular state are called "patent agents." People who licensed in the USPTO and who are licensed by at least one state are called "patent attorneys." Otherwise, people are licensed by STATES (or the local D.C. Bar), not the entire U.S.  Thus, one can be licensed in D.C., or New Jersey, etc., but NOT the entire United States.  Even if you confine your practice to arguing in the U.S. Supreme Court. 

In any event, the web site actually lists a New Jersey office under "Contact Us." http://www.clegal.ca/contact :
USA
180 Sylvan Avenue, 2nd floor
Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632
Direct Office # 862-200-7911

I wonder if the associate here isn't Michael Lupolover from Silverthorn & Lupolover, LLP? Looking up the address on Google, you will find this address listed by the BBB as "Law Office of Michael Lupolover, 180 Sylvan Ave Ste 5, Englewd Clfs, NJ 07632, with one Mr. Michael Reilly as "Customer Contact." However, the BBB also comments,
"Licensing
The business claims that the firm is not principally engaged in debt settlement, but their web site states that the company is a debt relief law firm. As such, the firm is required register with the NJ Department of Banking as a Debt Adjuster. As of March 17, 2011, BBB is unable to verify a Debt Adjuster license for the company."
http://www.bbb.org/new-jersey/business-review ... fs-nj-90085778/

For what it is worth, I can't find such a license, either. See:
https://www16.state.nj.us/DOBI_LicSearch/bnkSearch.jsp
and search for license type, "Debt Adjuster."

Of course, there are strict regulations over who can get a debt adjuster's license in New Jersey. For one, they have to be a nonprofit corporation. See FAQ #2 at
http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/banklicensing/debtadjusterfaq.html

"2. Can any person, corporation, or other business entity qualify to be licensed as a debt adjuster?
No, only a nonprofit corporation can be licensed as a debt adjuster."

A licensed attorney may, under some circumstances, be exempt from the New Jersey law requiring licensing as a debt adjuster. See FAQ #4 at the above link:

"4. Are there any exemptions to the licensure requirement:
Yes. Pursuant to N.J.S.A. 17:16G-1c(2) the following persons shall not be deemed to be debt adjusters:
(a) an attorney-at-law of this State who is not principally engaged as a debt adjuster ..."

Now, there is an attorney listing for a Michael A. Lupolover in New Jersey, but NOT for Mrs. Cockburn:

MICHAEL A LUPOLOVER
NJ Attorney ID : 033712007
Bar Admission Date : 12/03/2007
City : ENGLEWOOD CLIFFS
State : NJ
County : BERGEN
Phone Number : (201)461-0059

https://njcourts.judiciary.state.nj.us/web15z/AttyPAWeb/pages/home.faces

If I had to, I would guess this is your office and/or your boss, Mr. Michael Reilly.

If Mr. Lupolover is actually acting as a lawyer or a law firm, then engaging in loan modification services of the type you seem to be espousing and engaging in seems to me to be skating on awfully thin ice, according to this Advisory Committee on Professional Ethics Opinion 716, and the Committee on the Unauthorized Practice of Law Opinion 45, Appointed by the Supreme Court of New Jersey, which is found at:
http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/bulletins/ACPE_716_UPL_45_loanmod.pdf

If you really would like to explain yourself and your debt relief program, perhaps you might begin by answering some of the issues raised above, especially as they pertain to your activities out of New Jersey.

How much meth did it take to spew this loquacious tl;dr claptrap?

Watching drug-addled scammers like you squirm on this site can be fun, but you're one in a long disgraceful line and it gets boring after a while.